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Wind Wars - Talking Dollars and Sense

1/16/2014

10 Comments

 
The battle between renewables and fossil fuel generation has taught us all that it's good to be "green."  However, "green" comes in many shades.  There are also many internal battles going on inside the renewables world.  One of the most concerning is the "big wind" battle pitting onshore wind companies against offshore wind companies.

There's lots of money to be made by harnessing the wind.  It's a "free" resource, and our green-hungry society is clamoring to feel good about themselves by financially supporting it.

But all wind isn't good wind.  The idea behind "green" is that it's a sustainable resource.  A sustainable resource is one that is defined as "conserving an ecological balance by avoiding depletion of natural resources."

Onshore wind is not sustainable.  It requires the depletion of one of our most valuable resources, the  productive farmland that feeds and sustains us. It requires taking something from those less economically advantaged and politically connected and giving it to others with the right economic and political connections. Centralized onshore wind generation is taking over our farming communities with turbines and huge new transmission lines to feed it to far flung coastal cities thousands of miles away.  There, arrogant, urban environmentalists can feast hungrily on their expensive "green" energy, believing that they are helping sustain the planet.  Nothing could be further from the truth!

Offshore wind doesn't require new transmission rights of way across privately-held land.  It doesn't require much new land-based transmission at all.  The development will take place miles offshore and be fed to the coastal cities via a few new radial lines.  However, offshore wind has been blocked by economically and politically advantaged individuals who don't want distant wind turbines mucking up their sea views.  Instead, they would rather the rest of us suck it up and make a sacrifice to provide for their needs.

Onshore wind is much further along in the development process and is therefore less pricey than its offshore cousin.  However, onshore wind has reached the saturation point where billions must now be spent developing new transmission to serve it.  This brings us to the tipping point where we must decide our own energy future.

Will we finally move forward on offshore transmission located in our own back yards, or will we choose to spend just as much foisting the burden off on others by building new transmission for onshore wind?

Let's examine the economics of both proposals.

Onshore wind claims that its new transmission projects will provide 5000+ temporary construction jobs and 500+ operations jobs.  None of these suspiciously rounded claims are backed up by source data, so we can't be sure how they were calculated to determine their veracity.
  The jobs and economic benefits claimed by onshore wind are intended to be realized by the communities where the line is located.  For the example, that would be the states of Kansas, Missouri, Illinois and Indiana.  Coastal consumers buying this wind product would be sending their energy dollars to other states and into the pockets of foreign transmission project investors.

The U.S. Department of Energy just released comparable economic data for offshore wind.
  The data for offshore wind development off the mid-Atlantic coast predicts 6000+ temporary construction jobs and more than 2,300 operations jobs.  Offshore wind will keep your energy dollars at home in the mid-Atlantic region, providing jobs and economic benefits in the communities who consume the energy produced.

Local economic benefits from imported onshore wind:  0

Local economic benefits from local offshore wind:  $$$


The
choice is yours.

10 Comments
Captain Trips
1/17/2014 05:36:04 am

Wow. Now I've seen it all. One group of NIMBYs complaining about another group of NIMBYs.
According to the EIA.gov (Federal Gov't Energy Information Administration) the cost of off shore wind is more than twice the cost of new nuclear power (levelized cost). But they do point out that you can't really compare wind to nuke or fossil power because wind is not "dispatchable". That is, you can't count on it being there when it is needed. So wind can not replace fossil or nuclear power, unless you want to plan on power outages every time the wind stops.

Reply
Keryn
1/17/2014 05:48:55 am

I do hope they find a cure for your "illness," Cap'n. Care to explain your "NIMBY" acronym? Is that supposed to be some scientific term? Or just some secondary ad hominem argument?

Reply
Captain Trips
1/17/2014 06:00:07 am

NIMBY - "Not In My Back Yard", or in this case, Not in the yard across the street from me vs. Not in the ocean behind my house.

Reply
Keryn
1/17/2014 06:21:24 am

Oh, I see, it is an ad hominem argument, an attempt to segregate industry "outsiders" into unacceptable groups so that you don't have to consider the logic of their arguments. Thanks for clearing that up!

So, tell me, Cap'n Crunch, what sacrifice have you made for the needs of society, since that's where your mind shuts off?

Reply
Patience
1/17/2014 06:36:54 am

Trust me when I tell you, Cap'n, we know very well what NIMBY is - it's the name we get called when we point out the emperor has no clothes.

And from your pseudonym, I take it you're a fan of Stephen King? Because "merchant wind" really is a horror story ...

Reply
Keryn
1/17/2014 06:53:34 am

I don't think Cap'n Kangaroo likes wind, Patience. He certainly hasn't kept up with industry news that tells us that widely dispersed wind collected and injected at certain points, especially offshore wind, can be depended on as a resource. Instead of making a cogent argument based on knowledge and experience, he's so thoughtfully dumbed it down for us by calling us names.

That's helpful.

Reply
Romper Room
1/17/2014 07:25:29 am

I don't think Trippy even looked at the offshore project you linked, if he had he would have noticed that it's first phase is intended to simply move power from southern NJ to northern NJ, including power from his precious nukes. But it looks like being an arrogant, but sadly clueless, tool is his main reason for comments.

Reply
Tripp'n Me Up
1/17/2014 08:20:16 am

Keryn, My sincere apologies for touching a nerve.

What sacrifices have I made for the needs of society? The same one we all have made - I pay taxes. I just don’t like it when some of my tax money goes to line the dollar green pockets of wind developers whose business model relies on government subsidies to be profitable. And the high cost of wind power [research the Cape Wind Project - 18 to 21 cents per kilowatt hour (or higher if gov’t subsidies don’t come through) vs the 9 or 10 cents per kwh that you are paying] hurts the low income families the most; which in the long run increases everyone else’s taxes again.

What? “widely dispersed wind collected and injected at certain points” - you left off the “then fed through transmission lines to where it’s needed.” Are you now in favor of new transmission lines? Or are you willing to pay higher costs due to increased transmission line congestion on existing lines along with higher wheeling charges? Oh, wait. I forgot. You ARE in favor of new transmission lines as long as they are buried 10 miles off-shore - or in someone else's back yard.

I’d say that not only was my argument cogent, but also apodictic. Did you not read the rest of my first post where I referenced facts I found on the EIA web site?

If you say that wind energy is cheap, enough times, some people will start to believe it. It still doesn’t make it true. But nobody ever said that saving the planet won’t be expensive.

Patience, can you tell which phrase in this post tells you that I’m also a fan of Lou Rawls?

Mr. Room: Now who is name calling?

Phase one is NOT merely moving power from southern NJ to northern NJ. It includes a transmission line to move NEW power from NEW off-shore wind generators. And when the wind isn’t blowing hard enough there will be some capacity available to move conventionally generated power (what the EIA calls dispatchable). Did you not read the link? And no, I did not imply that I am a proponent of nuclear energy. I merely quoted government figures that indicate that off-shore wind is twice as expensive as new nuclear. I didn’t mention that it is 4 times as expensive as combined cycle natural gas generated power. I AM a fan of fracking. A frack-a-day keeps the Saudis away, I say.


Reply
Keryn
1/17/2014 02:07:44 pm

Trip,

You're sorry I was offended, but not sorry you said it? You're really not sorry, and I'm really not offended. If you simply want to have a creative name-calling contest, bring it on, but I guarantee you won't win. Hopefully we're past that now and onto having a real conversation at last.

Everyone pays taxes, even those asked to give up their property so that others can make their electricity use more environmentally conscious. So, you paying your taxes isn't a personal sacrifice greater than anyone else's.

I agree with you, it's time for commercial wind to pull up its big-boy pants and start standing on its own two feet financially. See? It really wasn't so hard to find common ground, now was it? But, we're not going to agree on everything.

If you want to compare Cape Wind's price per kWh to retail prices, I simply must insist that you use actual prices for Cape Wind's region taken from your favorite source, the EIA. Average residential retail cents per kWh for New England states was 16.37 for the month of October 2013. I'm not sure where you got 9 or 10 cents, but let's compare apples to apples here.

As far as your contention that the price of wind "hurts low income families," you must also consider the price economically disadvantaged families pay by having fossil fuel generation sited in their communities rather than affluent communities. This is elementary stuff, Trip. Google "environmental justice" and do some reading.

Maybe you noticed that "WV" in my website's name? Your concerns for low income families while pushing fossil fuel generation pretty much fall on deaf ears.

What makes you think I'm against all transmission improvement? I'm not. You need to face reality -- big wind is going to happen. This particular blog post is about evaluation of different plans and making choices. Offshore wind is the smarter economic choice for the mid-Atlantic states.

So, you have a gas company in your backyard? Or is it fracking in someone else's backyard that you love?

Reply
Romper Room
1/19/2014 11:56:20 am

I'm looking through my magic mirror...

Romper, bomper, stomper boo. Tell me, tell me, tell me, do. Magic Mirror, tell me today, have all my friends had fun at play? Ut-oh! I see Captain Trips has been a bad, bad boy, engaging in name calling!

Reply



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    About the Author

    Keryn Newman blogs here at StopPATH WV about energy issues, transmission policy, misguided regulation, our greedy energy companies and their corporate spin.
    In 2008, AEP & Allegheny Energy's PATH joint venture used their transmission line routing etch-a-sketch to draw a 765kV line across the street from her house. Oooops! And the rest is history.

    About
    StopPATH Blog

    StopPATH Blog began as a forum for information and opinion about the PATH transmission project.  The PATH project was abandoned in 2012, however, this blog was not.

    StopPATH Blog continues to bring you energy policy news and opinion from a consumer's point of view.  If it's sometimes snarky and oftentimes irreverent, just remember that the truth isn't pretty.  People come here because they want the truth, instead of the usual dreadful lies this industry continues to tell itself.  If you keep reading, I'll keep writing.


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